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	<title>Comments on: Back to Spinoza?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/</link>
	<description>Just another Blog.une.edu.au weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Klaus Rohde</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-20257</link>
		<dc:creator>Klaus Rohde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 00:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-20257</guid>
		<description>I replied to this on my knol: Dawkins etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I replied to this on my knol: Dawkins etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Fellows</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-20250</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Fellows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-20250</guid>
		<description>"Marco, Chris: I shall comment on all this in about two weeks (I hope), after my return from a trip."

Hmm, hrmm... still no comments probing for weak spots in my 'Origin of Life' arguments. Going to look up Schopenhauer at lunchtime!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Marco, Chris: I shall comment on all this in about two weeks (I hope), after my return from a trip.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmm, hrmm&#8230; still no comments probing for weak spots in my &#8216;Origin of Life&#8217; arguments. Going to look up Schopenhauer at lunchtime!</p>
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		<title>By: Klaus Rohde</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-20246</link>
		<dc:creator>Klaus Rohde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 06:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-20246</guid>
		<description>I have not seen the comments yet (they are not there yet), but I have removed the section on Objections to the NKS approach, because it confused the issue of defining complexity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have not seen the comments yet (they are not there yet), but I have removed the section on Objections to the NKS approach, because it confused the issue of defining complexity.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco Parigi</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-20218</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco Parigi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 06:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-20218</guid>
		<description>I have added a couple of comments to the relevant Knol, although I do find the nested comments a little confusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have added a couple of comments to the relevant Knol, although I do find the nested comments a little confusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Fellows</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-20115</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Fellows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 06:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-20115</guid>
		<description>Welcome back!

As by my calculations today is two weeks from March 24th... :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome back!</p>
<p>As by my calculations today is two weeks from March 24th&#8230; <img src='http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Klaus Rohde</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-19883</link>
		<dc:creator>Klaus Rohde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 03:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-19883</guid>
		<description>Marco, Chris: I shall comment on all this in about two weeks (I hope), after my return from a trip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marco, Chris: I shall comment on all this in about two weeks (I hope), after my return from a trip.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco Parigi</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-19882</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco Parigi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-19882</guid>
		<description>Chris's &lt;a href="http://chrisfellows.blogspot.com/search/label/history%20of%20life" rel="nofollow"&gt;show me the metabolism&lt;/a&gt; entries are a very good counter to Kauffman's assertions, and for me are enough to rule out geogenesis of same. I have also commented heavily on &lt;a href="http://marcoparigi.blogspot.com/search/label/Dorkins" rel="nofollow"&gt;Dawk-ins&lt;/a&gt; a while back, and are happy to expand if there is anything particular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris&#8217;s <a href="http://chrisfellows.blogspot.com/search/label/history%20of%20life" rel="nofollow">show me the metabolism</a> entries are a very good counter to Kauffman&#8217;s assertions, and for me are enough to rule out geogenesis of same. I have also commented heavily on <a href="http://marcoparigi.blogspot.com/search/label/Dorkins" rel="nofollow">Dawk-ins</a> a while back, and are happy to expand if there is anything particular.</p>
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		<title>By: Klaus Rohde</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-19665</link>
		<dc:creator>Klaus Rohde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 05:45:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-19665</guid>
		<description>"panspermia hypothesis turns out to be true, than a lot of the convergence we observe on other planets might be due to inherent limitations of the chemistry of DNA-based life, and not ‘molds’ of nature per se."

Quite true, but there may be (and probably are) ways to check which theory is correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;panspermia hypothesis turns out to be true, than a lot of the convergence we observe on other planets might be due to inherent limitations of the chemistry of DNA-based life, and not ‘molds’ of nature per se.&#8221;</p>
<p>Quite true, but there may be (and probably are) ways to check which theory is correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Fellows</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-19663</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Fellows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 05:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-19663</guid>
		<description>1)  "It seems to me sheer folly to give the same protection to a three-cell embryo as to a person after birth."

To me, also.

But it seems also to me to be sheer folly to give them no protection at all, and draw a line at an arbitrary point, as if we believed they were then magically transformed into humans by a fairy waving a wand. I think we are beholden to give prenatal and neonatal humans a &lt;a href="http://evildrclam.blogspot.com/2005/05/amble-part-one.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;graded level of protection and concern&lt;/a&gt;, consistent with their natural probability of growing to a state where they can perceive pain and the threat of death.

I think the final thought experiment about what the doctor would be doing now makes the point that suffering is *not* the greatest evil inescapable, whether our morality is absolutist or relativist.


2) Of course, if the panspermia hypothesis turns out to be true, than a lot of the convergence we observe on other planets might be due to inherent limitations of the chemistry of DNA-based life, and not 'molds' of nature per se. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1)  &#8220;It seems to me sheer folly to give the same protection to a three-cell embryo as to a person after birth.&#8221;</p>
<p>To me, also.</p>
<p>But it seems also to me to be sheer folly to give them no protection at all, and draw a line at an arbitrary point, as if we believed they were then magically transformed into humans by a fairy waving a wand. I think we are beholden to give prenatal and neonatal humans a <a href="http://evildrclam.blogspot.com/2005/05/amble-part-one.html" rel="nofollow">graded level of protection and concern</a>, consistent with their natural probability of growing to a state where they can perceive pain and the threat of death.</p>
<p>I think the final thought experiment about what the doctor would be doing now makes the point that suffering is *not* the greatest evil inescapable, whether our morality is absolutist or relativist.</p>
<p>2) Of course, if the panspermia hypothesis turns out to be true, than a lot of the convergence we observe on other planets might be due to inherent limitations of the chemistry of DNA-based life, and not &#8216;molds&#8217; of nature per se. <img src='http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Klaus Rohde</title>
		<link>http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/2009/03/07/back-to-spinoza/comment-page-1/#comment-19662</link>
		<dc:creator>Klaus Rohde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 04:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.une.edu.au/klausrohde/?p=456#comment-19662</guid>
		<description>Chris, I cannot recall having read your posts on Dawkins and Eagleton previously, thanks therefore for drawing my attention to them. Just a few comments on them.  

1) Abortion: what about the possibility that the ability of a person after birth to perceive pain and the threat of death is indeed the most important reason for not killing him/her? It must become a general principle (law) protecting even those who (your example) are killed suddenly and without pain, in order to protect humanity as a whole (most of whom would be able to perceive pain). After all, a murderer cannot foresee that his first shot will kill the victim, and once a taboo is broken, the doors to hell are open. – So, I agree on this point with Dawkins. It seems to me sheer folly to give the same protection to a three-cell embryo as to a person after death. – I would also apply this principle to animals: I would never kill an animal without reason, and the “more highly” developed it is, the stronger the reasons must be.	 For example, I would squash a mosquito (as potential vectors of dengue or malaria), but not a butterfly, and certainly not a bird or mammal. (Is this considered in any of the monotheistic religions?).

2) Now coming to Spinoza:


Spinoza as quoted by you:

    “Definition 1.6: God I understand to be a being absolutely infinite, that is a substance consisting of infinite attributes, each of which expresses eternal and infinite essence.
    Proposition 1.11: God necessarily exists.
    Proposition 1.15: Whatever is, is in God, and nothing can exist or be conceived without God.
    Proposition 1.18: God is the indwelling and not the transient cause of all things.
    Proposition 1.19: God and all the attributes of God are eternal.”


“The supposition of some, that I endeavour to prove in the
Tractatus Theologico-Politicus the unity of God and Nature (meaning by the
latter a certain mass or corporeal matter), is wholly erroneous.”


Your interpretation:” It seems to me that Spinoza is neither a moral relativist or a pantheist. It seems to me that Spinoza teaches an austere monotheism in the Judaeo-Islamic tradition. His universe is filled not with an infinite and eternal absence, but an infinite and eternal presence,…”

Without going into details (and I have not read Spinoza in detail to go into details), I would say that I agree with you that Dawkins has not provided convincing evidence that a “God hypothesis” in Spinoza’s sense (as “the indwelling and not the transient cause of all things”) cannot be upheld. Natural selection, Dawkins’ main argument, simply does not stand up to the task. There appear to be “molds” of nature (in other words “laws”) which force evolution into certain paths. How strictly determined these “paths” are, we don’t know, but there may be “experimental” ways to find out: discovery of life on other planets and in other star systems will show how closely convergent evolution has been. (Let’s hope we, i.e. humans, survive that long to see).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I cannot recall having read your posts on Dawkins and Eagleton previously, thanks therefore for drawing my attention to them. Just a few comments on them.  </p>
<p>1) Abortion: what about the possibility that the ability of a person after birth to perceive pain and the threat of death is indeed the most important reason for not killing him/her? It must become a general principle (law) protecting even those who (your example) are killed suddenly and without pain, in order to protect humanity as a whole (most of whom would be able to perceive pain). After all, a murderer cannot foresee that his first shot will kill the victim, and once a taboo is broken, the doors to hell are open. – So, I agree on this point with Dawkins. It seems to me sheer folly to give the same protection to a three-cell embryo as to a person after death. – I would also apply this principle to animals: I would never kill an animal without reason, and the “more highly” developed it is, the stronger the reasons must be.	 For example, I would squash a mosquito (as potential vectors of dengue or malaria), but not a butterfly, and certainly not a bird or mammal. (Is this considered in any of the monotheistic religions?).</p>
<p>2) Now coming to Spinoza:</p>
<p>Spinoza as quoted by you:</p>
<p>    “Definition 1.6: God I understand to be a being absolutely infinite, that is a substance consisting of infinite attributes, each of which expresses eternal and infinite essence.<br />
    Proposition 1.11: God necessarily exists.<br />
    Proposition 1.15: Whatever is, is in God, and nothing can exist or be conceived without God.<br />
    Proposition 1.18: God is the indwelling and not the transient cause of all things.<br />
    Proposition 1.19: God and all the attributes of God are eternal.”</p>
<p>“The supposition of some, that I endeavour to prove in the<br />
Tractatus Theologico-Politicus the unity of God and Nature (meaning by the<br />
latter a certain mass or corporeal matter), is wholly erroneous.”</p>
<p>Your interpretation:” It seems to me that Spinoza is neither a moral relativist or a pantheist. It seems to me that Spinoza teaches an austere monotheism in the Judaeo-Islamic tradition. His universe is filled not with an infinite and eternal absence, but an infinite and eternal presence,…”</p>
<p>Without going into details (and I have not read Spinoza in detail to go into details), I would say that I agree with you that Dawkins has not provided convincing evidence that a “God hypothesis” in Spinoza’s sense (as “the indwelling and not the transient cause of all things”) cannot be upheld. Natural selection, Dawkins’ main argument, simply does not stand up to the task. There appear to be “molds” of nature (in other words “laws”) which force evolution into certain paths. How strictly determined these “paths” are, we don’t know, but there may be “experimental” ways to find out: discovery of life on other planets and in other star systems will show how closely convergent evolution has been. (Let’s hope we, i.e. humans, survive that long to see).</p>
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